Author Topic: jump3  (Read 610 times)

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juner

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Re: jump3
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2017, 09:55:25 AM »

dunno why the text overlaid itself a few times but it's mostly 2s and 1s, a few 3s

oh i probably hit ctrl+f multiple times whoops

new cleaner vers:
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 10:31:54 AM by juner »

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2017, 10:07:26 AM »
When mashing jump.



When very delicately pressing jump.



I'd probably mash the button in regular play though.

Logitech G710, mechanical blue switches.

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2017, 10:32:34 AM »
hmm.... this game runs at 30 fps so 3 frames is 100ms..... i think its reasonable to expect keyboards to respond faster than that? maybe? it seems like cook is right on the 3-frame threshold

im not sure either mashing nor pressing "delicately" is ideal..... maybe can u try quickly striking the key? the goal for this test is to minimize the time between key press and release....

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2017, 11:14:25 AM »
I would say the first test above was rapidly striking the key.  That's what I would expect during regular gameplay.

The second test I was aiming to minimize key held time - eg. not bottoming out but only just triggering the actuation point.  Still got 3's consistently.

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2017, 02:35:52 PM »
ah ok thanx.....

so with a "normal" quick keypress, you average around 6 frames (200ms) between press and release? thats scarey because its tough to even get past the second level if you cant do 5-frame or lower jumps easily..... i might have to rethink the design of this game a lot if i want it to be playable on all keyboards

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2017, 02:56:39 PM »
heres the diff between 3 frames (left) and 6 frames (right)
(seizure warning?? i added a blue flash when the button is pressed and a red flash when its released)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
6 frames is just high enough to faceplant you into the lower spikes....

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2017, 03:43:54 PM »
Well I tells ya what I'll try the game and see what happens.

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2017, 03:53:33 PM »
I was able to beat level 2.  Some of the low jumps were pretty frustrating, but it was doable.

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2017, 03:58:38 PM »
im glad you could beat it but unfortunately the low jumps arent really meant to be any harder than the other kinds of jumps....

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2017, 04:35:26 PM »
i wrote some code that simulates this type of "input lag"..... turns out the game is perfectly playable with a minimum input length of 5 frames (even entrance x is completeable using vg strats for the first jump....) however a 6 frame minimum makes some basic jumps impossible (like the second jump in spike pillars)

so i guess ill design everything around the 5 frame minimum.....

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2017, 04:44:32 PM »
Sorry!

Have you considered using something designed for pressure-sensitivity like gamepad triggers?  Not exactly an ideal jump button, but as you seem to be making a very technical platformer it might be worth considering.

Or another idea is to exaggerate the frames.  So whereas before each individual frame modified jump height, instead every second or third frame could be "significant enough" to modify height.  eg.

Release on Frame 1 or 2 = Low jump
Release on Frame 3 or 4 = Mid jump
Release on Frame 5 or 6 = High jump

Or some variation thereof.

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 05:21:14 PM »
u dont have to be sorry :honeydew:

hmm i have gamepad support but the triggers just behave like regular buttons..... not sure if its worth making them work as fancy analog jumping controls, that seems like something few people would use

"frame exaggerating" is an interesting idea.... it would help even things out a bit across different keyboards, like if frames 1 and 2 did the same jump then it would sorta equalize me & vgs keyboard, & if frames 5 and 6 did the same jump then you would be able to do small jumps much more consistently.... ill probably implement it & see how it feels

i wonder if its possible to get consistent at hitting 5-frame inputs (or lower) on your keyboard with some practice? the hardware can detect inputs as short as 2 frames, so maybe theres a better tapping technique u can use.... i usually hover my finger like 1cm above the key and then forcefully strike it, which is quite different from my "mashing" technique (rest finger on key and vibrate) but maybe u mash in a more strikey way

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2017, 06:14:36 PM »
Well I'm using mechanical blues so you kind of need to look at the point they actuate, and why the release might take longer.


When I could successfully get a "2", it was a very light press without bottoming out the key.  It was at the point where the stroke barely registered before the spring pushed it back up.

Using the "forceful strike" method you described, I can get 3s but not 2s.

SquareWheel

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Re: jump3
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2017, 06:16:04 PM »
By the way I really like the checkpoint system.  Risk vs reward is one of my favorite topics of game design and it's cool to see interesting new ideas.

aimaina

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Re: jump3
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2017, 08:07:39 PM »
yeha it makes sense that mechanical switches would take a bit longer to register a key release, especially compared to "island-style" keyboards like the one on my laptop. my concern was that the figures u were getting from mashing were like, 5-6 frames slower than my keyboard, which seems more than "a bit" longer.....

if you can get 3s fairly consistently using the "forceful strike" method, that seems pretty reasonable, i think that means your keys are like maybe ~60-70ms slower to release than mine? as opposed to like ~160-200ms slower or something....

also thanx :honeydew: i wasnt sure about adding checkpoints but i think i like em now....