Author Topic: i like them and they are fluffy  (Read 10285 times)

hubol

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2020, 12:08:07 PM »
idk man i think some people deserve a bit more empathy than that

Kaynato

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2020, 01:31:07 AM »
thank u for the stream sylvie!!

aimaina

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2020, 11:10:21 PM »
oh cool you watched it? it was fun.... not sure when i will do a follow up but i want to and i want to explore other games....
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SquareWheel

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2021, 09:14:43 AM »
One more nostalgia vid.


dcco

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2021, 03:26:13 AM »
who would win rainbow road man or luke saward from dire dire docks

SquareWheel

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2021, 06:16:31 PM »
http://archive.cutey.zone/index.php?topic=7942.msg291757#msg291757

I never let this idea go, and I feel vindicated by the existence of Svelte.

Whereas traditional frameworks like React and Vue do the bulk of their work in the browser, Svelte shifts that work into a compile step that happens when you build your app.

hubol

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2021, 04:10:26 PM »
i’m not sure the quote is totally valid / what it’s trying to say... for instance, i know there is a library called nextjs that is based on react and produces semi-static web pages. the browser doesn’t do much work there

SquareWheel

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2021, 07:06:43 PM »
I've heard good things about Next but haven't used it myself.  It looks like they support both traditional SSR (on-demand rendering) and static export (generate .html pages) though, and that's pretty cool.  Would love to see some benchmarks against other frameworks.

Static output is similar to, but a little different from what I was referring to though.  That runs the application to its conclusion then exports the output.  I was describing more of a transpilation step.

So for example, in the original argument I made for jQuery, we could convert DOM access functions like $("#elem") to document.getElementById("elem").  Or $.ajax() to XMLHTTPRequest (which would be fetch today).  Basically the same conversions the library was making for us, but speed it up by doing it ahead of time.  Then you could either omit or slim down the jQuery library itself.

Because the abstracted code is generally smaller to write, you would eventually reach an inflection point where the converted code is larger than the data saved by omitting the library.  That'd be a pretty large application though.

Svelte it seems similarly has an inflection point.  At that point running things through React's abstractions like JSX and vDOM would actually reduce the payload size (though maybe not the JS execution time on weaker CPUs).

Today's frameworks do a whole lot more than jQuery ever did.  I won't pretend to have envisioned data bindings, code splitting, and their other novel features.  But I am really happy to see the idea of compilation being explored as an optimization step.

hubol

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2021, 05:00:18 AM »
interesting points

i didn't get to see the jquery post until now. i thought one of the advantages that jQuery brought, especially at that time, was that it tried to resolve the differences between different browser behaviors... i'm not sure how it could have been a preprocessor without breaking that. i'm also not sure that a js function calling another js function is such a huge thing to optimize for

have you used react? functional components are quite excellent

svelte looks interesting. it looks like they've had to invent some alien stuff to make it work, of course. it kind of reminds me of angular, trying to be html but having to hack in *ngIf *ngFor and other painful stuff.

SquareWheel

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2021, 03:34:23 PM »
i thought one of the advantages that jQuery brought, especially at that time, was that it tried to resolve the differences between different browser behaviors
Yeah, that's totally true.  Less of an issue once IE6 was generally deprecated, but there were still little hitches here and there.  So maybe more practical in IE7/IE8 days.

i'm also not sure that a js function calling another js function is such a huge thing to optimize for
It probably depends on the function.  When I look at call stack sizes for jQuery, they're often ten levels deep.

have you used react? functional components are quite excellent
I've only poked and prodded at it.  Haven't done a proper project yet but I really should.  Next looks really good, too.

I'm glad to see you have some webapp experience.  I don't know any other web people.  I mostly deal with Wordpress sites these days.

dcco

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2021, 08:11:50 PM »
webapp development simultaneously interests me and annoys me. the basic impression i get is that frameworks are moving more and more in the direction of what's essentially people designing their own languages for doing web dev, getting higher-level each time (occasionally becoming slightly lower-level when either runtime or compile-time gets too slow). which interests me because programming language design is my general area of research as a grad student, and so that's kind of the thing i do research on. but it also annoys me because people keep doing it again and again, and if i invest time into learning a framework that's half-baked, i'll probably also just want to develop my own "better" one. (this kind of happened a while ago when i tried learning angular).

that being said i have been thinking about making a website for myself sometime in the future so ill probably pick up something at some point. but probably not a full-on web app, just some kind of simple static site generator.

SquareWheel

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2021, 09:00:48 PM »
I'm not sure if newer frameworks are necessarily getting higher-level.  There's definitely abstraction, but you're still generally just writing HTML+CSS+JS.  I guess you could say Svelte is a type of DSL due to its compilation step, but it's still basically just JS (or TypeScript).

As for learning a framework, I imagine there's still a lot of skill transfer there.  Instead of wrapping your head around an entire new concept, it's more about adapting existing concepts.  "Oh, React Hooks are like X".  Of course I say that without much hands on experience myself, so I could be off base.

I use an SSG for my own site.  I think it's the best choice for informational sites/blogs.  They're still techy though (markdown, templating languages, git), so something like WordPress works better for normal people.  It's hard to beat the speed of a raw html file though.

hubol

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2021, 04:34:05 AM »
i like web dev and think its mostly cool. i have some gripes with typescript (wish it had language support for something like this), but i think it is otherwise the best programming language ive seen. the availability of an unspeakable number of node packages for accomplishing tasks is a great boon that i didnt get to conveniently experience in java. similarly, the fact that i can write client code, server code, or even a desktop app without switching languages is fabulous. async/await in javascript is great, i can write synchronous looking code and not have to worry about stupid multithreading bullshit. for example, i was able to write code like this for "hubol got emotionally poisoned in iowa":
Code: [Select]
await sleep(1000);
await hubol.say("That's so cute that you cook for yourself... And make drinks...");
await hubol.say("You really treat yourself.");
await cole.say("No, I don't treat myself. I treat myself like a person.");
await hubol.say("Then what do I treat myself like?");
await sleep(1500);
await narrator.say("You probably said something witty, but I don't remember what it was.")
await sleep(1000);

i did not enjoy angular, especially after having been exposed to functional components in react.

i have had to use wordpress for clients, it was a terrible experience. a lot of clicking, using busted php and js to try and massage some theme they had pulled in. felt slow, like using game maker. and i didn't find a reasonable way to version control my work so i was very anxious of breaking something. a very 2008 experience

(functional) react is nice, though i haven't used it much in my own practice. my simple website was made in next, and i've made other simple pages that use react. i've used it for work and it's fine. there seem to be a lot of unpleasant frameworks for applying styles to components. i think so far i have enjoyed styled-jsx most for that.

dcco

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2021, 07:23:29 PM »
I'm not sure if newer frameworks are necessarily getting higher-level.  There's definitely abstraction, but you're still generally just writing HTML+CSS+JS.  I guess you could say Svelte is a type of DSL due to its compilation step, but it's still basically just JS (or TypeScript).

Well there's stuff like Elm / PureScript that are basically just regular functional languages that compile into JS. WebAssembly has also struck me as being developed because people don't want to use JS everywhere. I have no idea if these technologies are anything besides niche though.


Code: [Select]
await sleep(1000);
await hubol.say("That's so cute that you cook for yourself... And make drinks...");
await hubol.say("You really treat yourself.");
await cole.say("No, I don't treat myself. I treat myself like a person.");
await hubol.say("Then what do I treat myself like?");
await sleep(1500);
await narrator.say("You probably said something witty, but I don't remember what it was.")
await sleep(1000);

dang this is actually some hot syntax for doing cutscenes. also i was wondering how typescript is - the kind of thing that typescript does is really close to my research interests. implementing something like that auto-guard feature is basically the kind of thing im hoping to be able to do if i ever get a research job.


SquareWheel

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Re: i like them and they are fluffy
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2021, 04:25:25 PM »
Well there's stuff like Elm / PureScript that are basically just regular functional languages that compile into JS.
Ah okay.  By frameworks I was referring more to the React/Angular/Vue methods of writing applications.  There are definitely transpilers as well which are more abstracted and functional.  CoffeeScript is another one, though personally I could never stand its backwards syntax.

WebAssembly has also struck me as being developed because people don't want to use JS everywhere. I have no idea if these technologies are anything besides niche though.
WebAssembly (wasm) is pretty cool.  It's not exactly a replacement for JS so much as a companion.  Glue code written in JS is still needed, and often the wasm itself is just for performance-critical components of a webapp.

I think it's great that any language is potentially able to run on the web.  There's some problems to solve, like languages with a GC needing to build that into the application as wasm doesn't have one.  Though I don't follow development closely so maybe that's changing.